Golem Master Prestige Class Discussion

[Katdoral]

You'll note first off that I have not listed the requirements and the skill list. That was intentional as I first wanted to get a reaction for the core concepts before delving into those simpler aspects

So...Let da hatz beginz!

[Sardinal]

First, some questions.

1. Why 14 levels? I'm not saying it cant be, but prestige classes overwhelmingly favor 5 or 10 level progressions and the ones that break this generally do so for a reason.

2. Why a cleric's BAB progression? While some Golems use cleric spells for their construction, most are very much arcane in nature and as a primarily spellcasting/item crafting class that intends to have constructs do your fighting for you does it utilize or need a clerics base attack?

I like a lot of the ideas here, but am a little worried about the power level. Golems are considerably stronger than most of the creatures that conjurers can summon or necromancers can make at comparable levels and pose a number of both mechanical and role-playing challenges. I'd almost like to see a golem master class that gave a creator abilities to consistently upgrade a single golem rather that make a large number of extra strong golems.

Here are some Specific concerns.

Construct Specialization 1: Martial Prowess. Those bonuses are far too high. I cant think of a single ability for other creature control style classes that give hit and damage bonuses that large. In fact, I cant think of many fighter prestige classes that give hit and damage bonuses that high.

Construct Manipulation: This, of course, is the hidden gem of unimaginable power buried in these 14 levels. The ability to layer buff spells, transport spells, and combat spells onto creatures that are already extremely powerful and will never be subject to anyone else spells is probably gonna be a big no.

Determined Constructs: This ability says that its new damage reduction stacks with other damage reduction abilities. So if the normal Golem has DR 10/magic the Golem Masters would become 24/magic and adamantine? Damage reductions never stack unless they are same kind and very rarely then. Not sure how this ability really works.

Things I really like.

Reforge construct. The ability to alter and upgrade your golem is key.

Repair Construct. Great ability and a strong improvement progression for it.

Trainable Tactis. This is the direction i would focus this class in. Rather than just making golems strong, make them unique.

Insightful Construction: a fair cost for gaining the ability to make golems normally out of reach for you spell list.


If it were me, I would drop the Path of the Engineer entirely and make one or two of the item crafting feats that make items cheaper and making them faster as prereqs for the class. I would focus some of the Path of he Martial on the ability to create your construct(s) with more general or monstrous feats and even one or two new spell like abilities or supernatural abilities (that as still thematically linked to the type of construct but not just upgrades to existing ones), thus making each one you create both a bit more powerful and unique. I would also consider the inverse of Repair Construct. The ability to drop a spell and turn it into something that damages or hinders constructs. Like you're so familiar with how the magic of golems work you can overload or short circuit it temporarily. Maybe 1d4 damage per spell level and a save versus a short duration stun like effect or maybe a flat out shut down for a few minutes. I would probably change dominate Construct as well, to something less permanent but super fun, like Override Command that lets you change the last command of a constructs creator.

All in all, I like the idea a lot, but feel they need refinement and some of them need toned down.

Heres hoping you wanted a lot of feedback =)

[Katdoral]

Well, I'll tackle these point by point.

So, I made it 14 levels because, when figuring the bare minimum requirements for craft construct (which I can't see not being one of the prereqs for the class even though I haven't listed any of them yet) of level 6, I wanted the class to be finished before reaching epic levels. I considered making it a 10 level class, but with the admittedly very powerful aspects of the class features it offered I wanted a more staggered progression then 10 levels would have allowed for.

As for the BAB and saves, you were fairly on point with my reasoning. Nearly half (48%) of the various constructs listed throughout several books required cleric only spells. My thought process was that I didn't want to saddle divine spellcasters with both the saves and BAB of an arcane caster.

As for Martial Prowess, I can concede that a per level increase is perhaps too much. However, note the differences between the two paths between construct specialization 1 and 2. I alternated a drastic disperity between what the two paths would recieve. For instance, spec 1 gave the per level to hit and damage, but 2 only added 20 feet of movement, and an additional +2 on charges. Whereas the engineer path for spec 1 only gives at best 10% reduction to base cost, and a 1000 gp reduction to the per hit die increase; but spec 2 drastically decreases construction times, one of the major difficulties with creating any construct. That theme, if you'll note, continues through to spec 4. I can however be convinced to reduce the attack and damage bonuses to perhaps a 1:2, or even a 1:3 ratio. Another point to note is that constructs follow a 1 per 4 progression on their attack rolls, so not so great really.

Construct Manipulation I agree was reaching. I'd rather not loose it entirely, so how about limiting it to a 1 per day function. A point here also is that while golems are constructs and almost always immune to magic and thus absolutely would benefit greatly from this, not all constructs are golems. While the title is Golem Master, you'll note that I didn't specify golems in any of the descriptions

Determined Constructs was poorly written, and that's entirely my fault. My intention was that the existing damage reduction be increased by the level of the golem master, or in cases where there was no damage reduction, they would gain damage reduction/adamantine equal to the level of the golem master. Admittedly that can also become fairly powerful and, as with the BAB issue, I'm open to staggering that amount to a 1:2 or 1:3 progression.

[Sardinal]

However, note the differences between the two paths between construct specialization 1 and 2. I alternated a drastic disperity between what the two paths would recieve.

Read more: worldofseverall.proboards.com/post/new/226#ixzz45Bm1paWY

So, um..did you just say that it's ok to be very overpowered because the class is balanced against...itself? I'm pretty sure that's what just happened.

some counter points. Constructs have a 3/4 base attack, not a 1/4 base attack. Nothing has a 1/4 BAB, its either 1/1 (Fighter), 3/4 (Cleric), or 1/2 (wizard)

Your statement concerning Construct Manipulation is....odd. You are saying the the ability should be still viable because not all constructs are Golems but constructs that aren't Golems dont have magic immunity so you can already cast spells on them making the ability redundant. It is only actually useful on Golems yet is also overpowered on Golems.

As far as it being 14 levels, assuming Craft Construct is a requirement (which based on the abilities it kinda has to be) the only classes that could possibly fill that requirement in the first 6 levels are Wizard and Psion, so you are essentially limiting this to wizards and psions only if they want to finish before epic.

Craft Construct requires Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Arms and Armor.

Craft Wondrous requires 3rd caster level, so you'd have to take it as your third level feat.

Craft Arms and Armor 5th caster level, so you'd have to take it as your fifth level wizard or Psion bonus feat.

Then you can take Craft Construct at 6 and enter the class at 7.

So Divine casters could never finish this class before epic levels. The earliest a cleric or mystic could enter the class (or any class requiring Craft Construct) is 10th. (Craft Wondrous at 3rd, Craft arms and armor at 6th, craft construct at 9th, enter at 10th)

I understand Determined Construct better now and am fine with the idea, though the rate may have to be 1/2 or 1/3 as you mentioned.

I like the idea of a Golem master prestgie class, but we still need to work out the kinks and tone it down I think.