Turn Undead Attempts

[Katdoral]

So, the question here is, how to handle the proliferation of magical gear that increases the number of turn attempts a cleric can have access to. Because of the introduction of Divine metamagic, and other similair abilities, Cleric's have received a massive boost to their effectiveness. Due to this, the current discussion revolves around a mechanical method of limiting this new resource.

The current discussing seems to be revolving around turning these bonus attempts into an enhancement bonus. I think the most direct method is to simply add it to the list of options in Wondereous items, following the same progression as the Statistic enhancing items.

Discuss.

[Sardinal]

Methods discussed or that I've thought about.

1) Making wonderous items that add Turn Attempts as enhancement bonuses with a progression similar to Ability Score Enhancers and at the same price. 4000g gets you a +2 Turn Item that grants 2 extra turn attempts. 16000g gets you a +4 and so on.

2) Removing the Line "You can take this feat multiple times, it's effects stack" from the Extra Turning Feat and instead making it a line of feats with each successive one requiring all of the previous feats as well as an increasing natural wisdom prerequisite. Extra Turning will require simply the ability to turn/rebuke, then Extra Turning II which could require Extra Turning and a WIS:15, then Extra Turning III which would require both Extra Turning and Extra Turning II and a WIS:17. According to the rules we set up for adding feats to magic items, this would still allow for a cleric to get some extra turn attempts but create a rapidly increasing cost barrier to gaining tons of them. Also, with each feat it should become that much harder to find a crafter who has access to the next successive feat in the line.

In addition to any specific changes we create, we should also make sure any item in the books that grant extra turning or turn attempts be in line with the proper pricing we set up (Im looking at you Nightsticks)

Thoughts?

[Sardinal]

1st option pros: characters should have access to some extra turn attempts earlier and cheaper, creates an easy hard cap of 6 Turn Attempts from magic items before epic levels and a serious price barrier for the epic versions, does nothing to limit the number of turn attempts a cleric can have from simply taking the extra turning feats.

2nd option pros: pricing can escalate as quickly as we want by adding prerequisites to the feats. Just adding extra turning to an item should cost 20,000g. Extra Turning 2 with Extra Turning and WIS 15 would be 35,000g. If we decide thats not expensive enough then we can add level requirements as well. Adding Turn Level (cleric or mystic level or WoF Level -4) 6 would make the cost of putting Extra Turning 2 into an item to 45,000g. This means the only caps to turn attempts in items is money and finding someone with the feat to put it in there.

[Katdoral]

I'm more in favor of option 1, and perhaps changing the wording of the extra turning feat to read as a competency bonus.

[Cyian]

Seems to me 3.5 has a clear value they associate to meta magic powers by the examples they set in the dmg. 
Sense this is basically a discussion about using magic to increase turn attempts to power Divine metamagic, how that magic should be limited, and how much that magic should cost. I though it would be useful to the discussion to break down the cost of these effects then convert them into turn attempts to do a side by side comparison. 

There are arguments to be made about the benefits and liabilities of producing these effects via class abilities and feat expenditures vs gold and gm controls, each have there ups and downs. So for our purposes were gonna just stick to the numbers in terms of gold it would cost to reproduce the effect.

Below I have shown in terms of gold piece value , what each turn used for powering divine meta-magic would cost if you were to just buy magic items to duplicate its effect.



Greater , Quicken Rod 170k
3 charges = 15 turns
170k \ 15 turns = 11.3k gp per turn

Intermediate, Quicken Rod 75k
3 charges = 15 turns
75 \ 15 turns = 5k gp per turn

Lesser, Quicken Rod 35k
3 charges = 15 turns
35k \ 15 turns = 2.3k gp per turn

Average gp value per turn = 6.2k 
Average gp value per turn using only Greater Rods = 11.3k

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G, Maximize 121k
3 charges = 12 turns
121 \ 12 = 10k gp per turn

Inter, Maximize 54k
3 charges = 12 turns
54 \ 12 = 4.5k gp per turn

Less, Maximize 14k
3 charges = 12 turns
14 \ 12 = 1.2k gp per turn

Average gp value per turn = 5.3k 
Average gp value per turn using only Greater Rods = 10k

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G, Empower 73k
3 charges = 9 Turns
73 \ 9 = 8.1k gp per turn

Inter, Empower 32k
3 charges = 9 turns
32 \ 9 = 3.5k gp per turn

Less, Empower
3 charges = 9 Turns
9 \ 9 = 1k gp per turn

Average gp value per turn = 3.9k  
Average gp value per turn using only Greater Rods = 8.1k 

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G, Silent 24k
3 charges = 6 Turns
24 \ 6 = 4k gp per turn

Inter, Silent 11k
3 charges = 6 turns
11 \ 6 = 1800 gp per turn

Less, Silent 3k
3 charges = 6 turns
3 \ 6 = 500 gp per turn

Average gp value per turn = 2.1k  
Average gp value per turn using only Greater Rods = 4k 

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Total

Overall average gp value per turn = 4.4k 
Overall average gp value per turn using only Greater Rods = 8.3k

Average overall average gp value per turn 6.3k

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My thoughts are why would anyone spend more gold in enchanting items to gain turn attempts for the purpose of powering Divine meta-magic than it would be to just buy the corresponding more common items that duplicate the effects of the divine metamagic you seek to invoke. 

Average non-human cleric has 7 feats in a 20 level career, which basically equates to 30% of his feat selections to power quicken once a day (3+ cha mod = turn attempts). 

Using Ela'dryn as the example he has 16 turn attempts at level 15. 8 of which come by a crazy high charisma score (+5), and 4 of which come from a feat expenditure Extra Turning, and another 4 from extra turning feat on his staff , effectively allowing him to quicken 3x a day. With no magic enhancements or additional feat expenditure he would still be only able to do this once, not to mention only being able to apply this divine meta magic to spells with air sonic electricity descriptor or spell that do electricity damage. 

Anyways im sure will discuss in more detail when we get together until then =)

Cyian

[Sardinal]

Seems to me 3.5 has a clear value they associate to meta magic powers by the examples they set in the dmg.

While the value of the metamagic feat is clear (Based on the number of spell levels the feat would normally increase the spell by) the value of a Turn Attempt is not.  If the value varies wildly from 2.1k to 11.3k that would indicate there not being a clear value, but an inconsistent value.  The value of the turn attempt is increasing based on the power of the feat being activated and the level of the spell the feat is being applied to.  To complicate the value of a turn attempt even further a Nightstick costs 7500gp and grants 4 turn attempts.  This would place the value of a turn attempt at just under 1.9k gold.  The Reliquary Holy Symbol gives up to 3 turn attempts if other requirements are met and costs 1k, placing the value of a turn attempt at 333g.

As mentioned in the OP, Divine Metamagic is only one of the abilities that make this an issue that needs a solution.  Eladryn's prestige class, other prestige classes, and all divine feats use turn attempts as a resource cost for their abilities.  Gaining raw turn attempts is far more valuable to Eladryn and others with these abilities because they can be used in multiple ways, as opposed to metamagic rods which can be used for only one purpose.  Gaining virtually infinite turn attempts through items, as the system allows for now, renders the entire point of a resource cost for all these powerful abilities moot. 

Clearly if you have the choice to spend 170,000g you would buy 22 nightsticks netting you 88 turn attempts with which you could quicken 17 spells over a single greater quicken rod that you could quicken 3 spells with.

[Katdoral]

So,the consensus seems to be, after a lengthy discussion, is to expand the definition of Stacking to include non roll or check related instances. This means that any magical item that is based on charges per day (Not just charges, but charges per day) you can only gain the effects of one of them. This means if you have two quicken metamagic rods, you can only use one of them in any 24 hour period.